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The pernicious influence of immigrants in the UK

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There are a number of British National Party supporters on the Vine, and they've been complaining about immigration, and immigrants "changing our culture", suggesting that this is a bad thing. It's not the first time that culture in the British Isles has been influenced by incomers, of course, and to avoid hypocrisy and resist any future change, it seems to me that it would be the right thing to do for those who hold these views to boycott all aspects of British culture which are the result of immigration. To help them along, I've compiled a little list:

Food

  • Curry and all other food from the Indian sub-continent.
  • Chinese carry-outs
  • Kebabs
  • Fish and chips - the chips were brought from Belgium by Hugenot asylum seekers; the fried fish is a Jewish dish.
  • Apple Pie (Dutch merchants - they might have brought carrots with them, too)
  • Bagels - those Eastern European Jews again
  • Kippers - brought by the Vikings, who weren't exactly peaceful settlers.
  • Peaches (the Anglo-Saxons)
  • Apples (the Romans)
  • Asparagus (the Romans)
  • Celery (the Romans)
  • Chives (the Romans)
  • Cucumbers (the Romans)
  • Marrows (the Romans)
  • Onions (the Romans)
  • Parsnips (the Romans)
  • Peas (the Romans)
  • Pheasant (the Romans)
  • Preserves - jam etc (the Romans)
  • Rabbit (the Romans)
  • Turnips (the Romans)
  • Many herbs and spices (the Romans)

Drink

  • Tea - introduced by Portuguese immigrant Catherine of Braganza
  • Coffee - the first coffee house in the UK was set up by Pasqua Rosée, who is clearly an immigrant with a name like that!
  • Wine (the Romans)
  • Beer. Unhopped ale is okay.

These lists do not include food which was brought by British people from abroad, just that which was introduced by immigrants as living on barley, seaweed and shellfish wouldn't be much fun.

Other aspects of "British" culture

  • The English language (the Anglo-Saxons, much modified by the Normans)
  • TheEnglish legal system (the Normans). The Scottish one is based on Roman law.
  • The music of Handel (emigrated from Germany to England), Freddie Mercury (from Zanzibar), Cliff Richard (Indian), George Michael (Greek), Status Quo (Francis Rossi is a mix of Italian and Irish), Vanessa Mae (Chinese) KT Tunstall (Chinese) and practically everything in the charts right now, it seems.
  • Football - the contributions of British Italians and people from the Caribbean are far too many to list. In fact, it would be best to ignore sport altogether. I mean, once the England cricket team was captained by someone called Hussain, the whole enterprise was doomed.
  • James Bond - Ian Fleming was of Swiss origins.
  • The Conservative and Unionist Party - Iain Duncan Smith (grandmother was Japanese), Michael Portillo (Spanish descent), Nigel Lawson, Baroness Warsi, Michael Howard (Romanian parents) and Winston Churchill (whose mother was an American immigrant).
  • Wicca - this might seem to be the only genuinely British religion, but Dorothy Clutterbuck, who taught Gerald Gardner, was born in India. Gardner himself spent most of his formative years in Asia.
  • The railways - built with Irish labour. Even though the labourers were British citizens at the time, they didn't want to be, and this should be respected.

Of course, immigrants have changed British culture in other ways, including by setting up businesses which out-competed the existing ones and put them out of business. Such behaviour should not be tolerated by the defenders of British culture and so the following businesses, founded by immigrants and their descendants, should be boycotted.

  • easyJet (Stelios is a Greek Cypriot immigrant, though he mostly lives in Monaco these days)
  • Marks and Spencer co-founded by Michael Marks, a Jew from Belarus.
  • Sainsbury's - founded by John James Sainsbury, a Jew.
  • Tesco - founded by Jack Cohen, a Jew whose father immigrated from Poland.
  • Burton, Top Shop, Miss Selfridge, Principles, Dorothy Perkins, Evans, Wallis, Top Man etc. - descended from the Burton Group, founded by Montague Burton, a Lithuanian Jew. These have now been sold to a company owned by another Jew, Philip Green, who also owns BHS and Etam.
  • The Body Shop - founded by Anita Roddick, an Italian Jew
  • The Forte Group, including Little Chef, Travelodge, Welcome Break motorway services and the Savoy Hotel - founded by Charles Forte, who immigrated from Italy.
  • ITV - Granada, one of the two companies making up ITV plc was founded by Sydney Bernstein, who was Jewish.
  • Joe Bloggs clothing - founded by Shami Ahmed, born in Pakistan.
  • New Look clothing stores - founded by Tom Singh.
  • Selfridges - founded by an American immigrant, Harry Gordon Selfridge, with the express intention of changing the standards of retailing in the UK.
  • Dixons, PC World, Currys, The Link - founded by Charles Kalms, another Jewish businessman.
  • Argos, Homebase and Burberry - all once part of Great Universal Stores, founded by George and Abraham Rose, which sounds Jewish. The business was developed by Issac Wolfson, son of Polish immigrants. Experian, the credit reference agency, is also part of the same family of companies.
  • Ann Summers, Knickerbox - Gold Group International founded by Ralph and David Gold, more Jews coming here and changing the way we do things.
  • Bovis Construction - a failing company taken over by Samuel Joseph and Sidney Gluckstein. They are behind many lend-lease projects, so choose your hospital carefully.
  • Dollond and Aitcheson - John Dollond was the son of Hugenot refugees.
  • H. Samuel - has its origins in the clockmaking and silversmithing business of Moses Samuel.

On top of this, the thousands of Asian-owned newsagents, corner shops and groceries, Chinese supermarkets and Polish delis should be avoided.

To avoid contamination with retail practices introduced to the UK by immigrants, you should avoid doing any shopping on Sundays, outwith the hours of 9am to 5pm and on Wednesday afternoon (Tuesday afternoon in some parts of Lancashire).

As for myself? I think I'll pop down to the corner shop (Asian-owned, and therefore open at 6pm) and buy myself a couple of (vegetarian) haggis samosas.

  • 34 Votes
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{"commentId":1561744,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}

Excellent list! I hadn't noticed any BNP supporters on NV - to be honest, I'm surprised they can operate a computer.

But really, apart from apples, asparagus, onions, parsnips, pheasant, rabbit, marrows and turnips, what have the Romans ever done for us?

{"commentId":1561744,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 9 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561793,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Look here and here

{"commentId":1561793,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561842,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
{"commentId":1561842,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561847,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}

Thanks Dennis + Ted.

Christ, it appears that Daily Mail readers can operate computers after all - who'd have thunk it. That kind of ignorant fear-mongering is disturbing, but I actually feel good that it's on Newsvine - it exposes it for the hateful ignorance that it really is, and gets good debate going over what is a difficult subject.

I've been an immigrant in 2 countries, The Netherlands and the US. We moved to the Netherlands in 1970, and were the first foreigners in our neighbourhood. We suffered some abuse, namely name calling, but nothing major - a lot of it was just kids

Here in the US, the only thing I have suffered are the attentions of laydeez who just luuuuurve my accent. It's not all bad.

{"commentId":1561847,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:54 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561874,"authorDomain":"feorag"}
what have the Romans ever done for us?

Terry Gilliam - American! And Eric Idle married an Australian, and John Cleese an American.

{"commentId":1561874,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#1.4 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:58 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561885,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
what have the Romans ever done for us?

This alphabet we're all using.

{"commentId":1561885,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:00 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561946,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}
Dennis: This alphabet we're all using.

and aquaducts.

{"commentId":1561946,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
{"commentId":1564182,"authorDomain":"leveldown"}

Excellent list, but just remember that most of the Roman stuff is irrelevant to the people you're complaining about as most of them would have had at least some Norman heritage. When the Normans invaded large swathes of true "Brits" were pushed into Wales and Cornwall (or killed). Isn't it ironic most of the people complaining about immigrants are probably descended from immigrants who took control of the country by deadly force.

{"commentId":1564182,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"leveldown"}
  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:06 AM EDT
{"commentId":1564279,"authorDomain":"bluejohnnyd"}

Reminds me of the situation here...

{"commentId":1564279,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"bluejohnnyd"}
  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:54 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1561805,"authorDomain":"thesofa"}

Harrods is missing from the business list.

Also, if you do manage to eat English food, you can't use a fork - that's a French affectation, which they imported from Italy. Brought here by one of our many royal foreign brides, can't remember which one. Which reminds me, no lasagne, spag bol, cappuccino, and many ice-cream sundaes - these were brought by the Italians from Bardi who came to Cardiff, Glasgow and London and opened ice-cream, milk and coffee bars.

And the Royal Family, mongrels that they are.

Most of our traditional Christmas food wasn't the result of immigration per se, but was imported as a result of the Crusades - mincemeat is a prime example. All that dried fruit and spices.

{"commentId":1561805,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"thesofa"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:43 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561883,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Of course, Harrods is now owned by an immigrant, though the founder appears to have been as British as you get (which is generally "not very").

{"commentId":1561883,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#2.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:00 PM EDT
{"commentId":1564838,"authorDomain":"davidmcgirr"}

Might I point out that chocolate with milk in it, which is to say MOST chocolate,
was an idea pioneered by a man named Sloane, who was descended from the 7 original Irish families.

So no cadburys dairy milk for you.

-Dave

{"commentId":1564838,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"davidmcgirr"}
  • 6 votes
#2.2 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1561828,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
Apple Pie

I thought that was a US thing ? Like a US grandmother dreamed it up....

{"commentId":1561828,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561887,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

I think they got it from the Dutch, too, or maybe German immigrants.

{"commentId":1561887,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#3.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561915,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

I guess that kills that old saying whatever it is "As American as Apple Pie"....

{"commentId":1561915,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561923,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Given that the majority of Americans are descended from relatively recent immigrants, I think the phrase "as American as apple pie" is totally apt.

{"commentId":1561923,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#3.3 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:12 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561951,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

I sure cannot talk with a 100% Norwegian dad and mixture Irish/German Mom :-)

{"commentId":1561951,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 3 votes
#3.4 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:16 PM EDT
{"commentId":1561982,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

My family tree is interesting. My maternal grandfather was Canadian, but his family originally hailed from Scotland. There's Irish in there, and I have ancestors called Cohen, which allegedly makes me the descendent of the priests at the Temple in Jerusalem. I'm married to someone whose father's family came to the UK from Poland in the early 20th century. My brother-in-law is Jamaican. I feel this mixture is, in fact, typically British.

{"commentId":1561982,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#3.5 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
{"commentId":1562003,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
I feel this mixture is, in fact, typically British.

Thats typical ? Hah ! I would say you have a very diverse and interesting family tree and one well worth tracing out.

{"commentId":1562003,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 5 votes
#3.6 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:28 PM EDT
{"commentId":1564531,"authorDomain":"alistairbrown"}
Given that the majority of Americans are descended from relatively recent immigrants, I think the phrase "as American as apple pie" is totally apt.

Reminds me of Frank Burns in the TV series of MASH. The most overly patriotic American in the Korean war, whose proud family arrived in America as far back as... 1927.

{"commentId":1564531,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"alistairbrown"}
  • 5 votes
#3.7 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:21 AM EDT
{"commentId":1564728,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

It's just amazing to go back to the Washington DC area and you can see places as old as 1890 or go to Williamsburg, VA and see a complete town with buildings all marked with the dates they were built, from 1699-1780. Until..opps they are all accurately-recreated to look just like that....oh well...yeah, the US is kinda young compared to most other places....

{"commentId":1564728,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 5 votes
#3.8 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
{"commentId":1566098,"authorDomain":"seward"}

Tedd, we have churches and castles and Manor Houses dating back to the 11th and 12 centuries in Britain.

{"commentId":1566098,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"seward"}
  • 2 votes
#3.9 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:38 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566168,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Let's see...

We have buildings from the Hittite, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Seljuk and Ottoman Empires in Turkey.

We win.

{"commentId":1566168,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 7 votes
#3.10 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566276,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Tedd - when I visit the US, it's really weird to see these modern buildings marked as historic - my flat was built in the 1820s, and is nothing special (not that that's stopped it getting a Grade A listing and the area being a World Heritage Site). Australia is even weirder in that respect, having historic buildings that Americans would think are modern.

{"commentId":1566276,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#3.11 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:29 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566465,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}

That's absolutely true. There's no building here older than 1800 in Tasmania. But there are aboriginal flints, middens, and rock carvings going back over 30 thousand years. Which makes you stop and think.

It sure makes anyone with an ounce of brains stop and think before they talk about "immigrants".

{"commentId":1566465,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"djehuty"}
  • 7 votes
#3.12 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566555,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

Actually....I kinda figured someone would figure I was being my sarcastic self. Since I was born in Stuttgart, Germany, grew up in Bergen Norway and then came to the young US...I am always amazed also when people walk around "old town Seattle" and gaze the the ancient building dating back to 1890 :-)... (Most of Seattle was destroyed in a large fire) Yes I think Dennis has all beat unless someone here is from Greece (or Atlantis....)

We have "Historic Buildings" that are that way just because of what they are connected to. The Mar's Company (Candy) HQ is a "historic building", the plain dull boring ugly Government building that had the first Arpanet connection is now "historic" We just added a Denny's Restaurant (which I hate !) as "historic" in Seattle, for some stupid reason. It is from about 1950 !

{"commentId":1566555,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 4 votes
#3.13 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:43 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1561837,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

Oh yeah...

clotted cream
Lands' End (The Store got its name from the town in the UK)

{"commentId":1561837,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:51 PM EDT
{"commentId":1562008,"authorDomain":"LAUHAL63"}

I just want to know how you had the time to research & write this considering how much time you've been spending in the Greenhouse?!?!?! Clipped. :)

{"commentId":1562008,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"LAUHAL63"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
{"commentId":1562170,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

You'll notice a shortage of spam reporting on my part today.

{"commentId":1562170,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 6 votes
#5.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1562058,"authorDomain":"bluejohnnyd"}

Good grief. I'd heard that xenophobia was mounting in parts of Europe, but this is ridiculous. Why don't you grow a heart, Feorag?

(Nice to meet you, by the way)

{"commentId":1562058,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"bluejohnnyd"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:42 PM EDT
{"commentId":1562119,"authorDomain":"LAUHAL63"}

Haha! bluejohnnyd meet Feorag. Feorag...bluejohnnyd. There, now we're all friends! :)

{"commentId":1562119,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"LAUHAL63"}
  • 5 votes
#6.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:57 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1562308,"authorDomain":"ajzzz"}

I was in favour of the influence of immigration on Britain until I read your list. If I had come to it without knowledge of the influence of immigration, I might be tempted to say "sod it, please please send them back". Michael Howard? Gosh, I'd give up wine. Tea? Never!

{"commentId":1562308,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"ajzzz"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
{"commentId":1562516,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Sorry, I was going to do all the main political parties, but got bored. I was even going to feature the BNP, seeing as a few years ago, one of their high heidyins discovered he was technically Jewish!

{"commentId":1562516,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563292,"authorDomain":"silkmesh"}

Michael Howard is the son of a Romanian Jew, the family changed their name shortly after they immigrated to UK. I have met Michael many times he is a very clever intelligent man and a true patriotic person who is anti EU. Shame he never made Prime Minister. However some of his debates with 'Tony B' at prime minister question time where the best I have ever heard from a shadow prime minster. He is not a racialist as far as I know. I used to live in Folkstone of which is his constituency

{"commentId":1563292,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"silkmesh"}
  • 4 votes
#7.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:47 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566304,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Babel Fish - Michael Howard is mentioned because he had a significant influence on the UK during his career, but is, as you note, the child of immigrants.

{"commentId":1566304,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 3 votes
#7.3 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:38 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1562867,"authorDomain":"djehuty"}

Nice article.

{"commentId":1562867,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"djehuty"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:21 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563175,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
In fact, it would be best to ignore sport altogether.

Nonsense. The Scots gave us the grand game golf. And it spread throughout the Commonwealth

{"commentId":1563175,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#9 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:09 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563234,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}

He said sport, not golf. ;-)

{"commentId":1563234,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
  • 7 votes
#9.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:29 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563256,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

I believe at the time golf was invented, Scotland wasn't part of the United Kingdom. I'd need to check though.

{"commentId":1563256,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#9.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:35 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563626,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}

No, you're correct. The first documented game was played in Edinburgh in the mid 15th century.

spifster

He said sport, not golf. ;-)

The Wee Icemon would jerk a knot in your tail for that crack if he were still around.

{"commentId":1563626,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
  • 4 votes
#9.3 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:36 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1563241,"authorDomain":"silkmesh"}

I have news for you that the links given to supposed Newsvine BNP supporters are incorrect as yet I have not come crossed any on the vine. The only true vine @!$%#es, concerning the present Immigrants in UK is that they are not melting into the culture even to a point of not learning to speak English.

Some seemingly are going such lengths as trying to get their religious rules imposed on the rest of the population. The people that bring that form of argument to the vine are not racialist in fact sometimes the boot is on the other foot where as some of the immigrants can be seen to be racialists.

Of course all British people born in UK are in fact mongrels but the immigration that cause that to be a fact, has melted into the gene pool. I really can not see the present ghetto system of people retaining a group culture integrating into the British gene pool.

This is not the cause of British racialism but the cause of people bringing their culture and setting up ghetto's unwilling to mix in with the rest of the gene pool. The problem is a cultural one and not a racial one, I know that to be a fact having lived within a Muslim community where as I bent to their culture but they to mine.

Maybe after a 5 hundred years or so a culture mix will be come apparent. But meanwhile many see this as a big problem to a point they some times feel lost in their own land a land they grew up in before the present flood of immigration to British shores.

One also has to remember the tolerance to other cultures and religion in UK, is much better than the tolerance found within many of the immigrants original home lands. One does not need to be a BNP supporter or any form of racialist to see the problems of culture in UK.

The amusing thing is I now live in a culture that I have ajusted too, I made a point to learn the language (of which is an ongoing event) and to gain many Filipino friends within my community. I have noted the British ex-pats here normally do exactly the same as myself.

However my American friends act like they are still in America very few learn the language or have a clue about the culture as many non British here in the Philippines. Brits do it well overseas as immigrant, why can not immigrant integrate better in UK?

{"commentId":1563241,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"silkmesh"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:31 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563294,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}

Your experience of Brits learning the local language and mixing in with the locals has not been mine. In the Netherlands where I grew up, most of the Brits I knew (and I knew a lot, as I went to the British School in the Netherlands) did not learn Dutch, nor did they have any Dutch friends.

The women all joined "The British Womens Club" (yech) and had coffee mornings, the men went to work, then went home, no-one mixing with the Dutch. Most of the British school kids played together and it was rare for them to have Dutch friends. Luckily, there were exceptions, my family among them. I am bilingual in Dutch and English, as are both my sisters. My parents both speak Dutch albeit with English accents, but at least they bothered to learn - they were not the norm in that respect. They still live there today, and have many Dutch friends

I have a few British Friends who have lived there for over 30 years who cannot even speak Dutch!

{"commentId":1563294,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 6 votes
#10.1 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:49 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563302,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Unfortunately, your experience does not match the reality in the UK, no matter what the Daily Mail claims. Indeed, the latest batch of Eastern European immigrants seem to have a better command of English than the native speakers, especially when it comes to writing it down, though our Hungarian cleaners do occasionally ask us for clarification on some obscure point of grammar or colloquial usage.

Also, I went to university in Bradford, and there were no demands put upon me by my Muslim landlord (apart from paying the rent on time, of course, and not wrecking the place), my Muslim neighbours nor the Muslim shopkeepers with whom I had regular dealings, as their shops provided a lot of cheap vegetarian food. Some of the local Muslim children were a pain, mostly because the only place they had to play cricket was the street. I suspect the problem had nothing to do with the ethnicity or religious background of the children, and more to do with a lack of places where they could be children.

Also, I consider voting for the BNP three times to be supporting them, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that the posts linked to were not by BNP supporters, when the person who seeded them is proud of having voted BNP.

{"commentId":1563302,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#10.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:51 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563309,"authorDomain":"seward"}

Thank you, Babel, for explaining that one. I have recently been called a "Racist", an " Xenophobe", and quite a few unwarranted slurs.

It seems that many of my comments are not too popular with a certain element here on Newsvine.

{"commentId":1563309,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"seward"}
  • 1 vote
#10.3 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:53 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563313,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}
It seems that many of my comments are not too popular with a certain element here on Newsvine.

Those who oppose bigotry and racism, I would imagine.

{"commentId":1563313,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 6 votes
#10.4 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:54 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563326,"authorDomain":"seward"}

You can vote "Tory", doesn't mean that you are one, you can vote "Labour", you do not need to be a card-carrying Member of the Labour Party.

The same thing applies to the Green Party, U.K.I.P., or the Monster Raving Loony Party!

Ever heard of the term "Floating Voter?"

{"commentId":1563326,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"seward"}
  • 1 vote
#10.5 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:59 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563328,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Sprydle: I have learned over the years that I am a freak, because whenever I go somewhere I insist on learning enough of the language to be able to do the basic tourist stuff - ordering food and drink, general shopping, politeness words etc. This causes surprise because, apparently, British people just don't do that, not even when emigrate. The Dutch have no grounds to complain though, as they don't exactly help people trying to speak Dutch. My great achievement is getting two sentences into a conversation in Amsterdam before they realised and switched to English, instead of the usual one. I don't count the evenings in 't Arendsnest, as I have the staff there trained, and they put up with my awful Dutch until I give up.

{"commentId":1563328,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 4 votes
#10.6 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:59 PM EDT
{"commentId":1563340,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}

Feorag - my parents had the same problem - as soon as they tried to speak Dutch, the Dutch would speak English to them - they gad to insist constantly that they speak in Dutch. They were just being helpful, and they *do* generally speak very good English.

It was easier for myself and my sisters - I was 5 when I moved there and played with Dutch kids, just picked up the language like a sponge, as kids do.

{"commentId":1563340,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 5 votes
#10.7 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:04 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567129,"authorDomain":"silkmesh"}

As I have lived in the Haigh Holland whilst looking for a job in IT, I soon found out I had to learn Dutch before any employer would employ me. I speak German and learning Dutch was in fact complicated due to that fact. The fact that the Dutch switch to English when ones practising the language, and the dirty looks I got when accidental using a similar German word. I of course realised that I had better immigrate elsewhere because my money would run out before I start speaking the language fluent enough to get a job.

However I found a nice British hangout a bar called the Kangaroo Bar, I was amazed how many British especially Scots spoke Dutch fluently and worked in the capital. Times are changing where as the British used to be very lazy at learning languages. All of my children are multi lingual.

As for Immigrants in UK not speaking English, it is a growing problem as a person who has lived in Asian and African communities its something I know well. I have even heard some of my Indian friends in Hong Kong and China that they have cousin, sisters and brothers and friends in UK that can hardly speak a word of English.

That one of the reasons the government are now following many of their european counterparts by insisting all nationalised immigrants speak the national tongue.

{"commentId":1567129,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"silkmesh"}
  • 2 votes
#10.8 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:13 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567181,"authorDomain":"alistairbrown"}
Feorag - my parents had the same problem - as soon as they tried to speak Dutch, the Dutch would speak English to them - they gad to insist constantly that they speak in Dutch. They were just being helpful, and they *do* generally speak very good English.

The same as Germany, it is most unfortunate that more Europeans speak English than than the English (myself included) speak their own. One of my best friends is from Hamburg, and frequently reminds me never to give away that I might be English in Germany, else I'll never learn the language.

wenn du fertig bist, warte nicht bis irgendwas passiert, sonst verbleibe ich getrennt von dir?

{"commentId":1567181,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"alistairbrown"}
  • 2 votes
#10.9 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:26 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567195,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

Sie sind nicht Deutscher ?

{"commentId":1567195,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 2 votes
#10.10 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:31 PM EDT
{"commentId":1568189,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Babel Fish: there is at least one specialist employment agency which places non-Dutch speakers in jobs in the Netherlands. Their ads are the first thing you see when you get off the plane at Schiphol. It is possible to get the Dutch to speak Dutch so long as they know you are trying the learn the language, or keep your basics up to scratch. The Scots are good at Dutch because between them, Scots and Gaelic have the same set of phonemes as Dutch - there are no awkward pronunciations to learn. Also, the Scots have a generally better attitude to foreign languages than the English.

The Germans are generally helpful to language learners, and will even explain errors on occasion if they think you are that serious. The Japanese, too, are helpful, but the younger ones will want to practice their English if they get the chance. They will even tolerate you being too polite, or not quite polite enough.

For French, the French will make sure you get language practice, possibly more than you need! They might be able to speak other languages but, when in France, they are not going to. They're a bit like the British in that respect. The French-speaking Belgians are more like the Dutch when it comes to switching to English as soon as a non-native accent is detected. The Belgian accent is, to my ears, much clearer than French ones. I am very concerned, though, that next year's trip to Montreal is going to wreck my French completely!

In Brussels, an officially bilingual city, you need to be aware that speaking to someone in the "other" language is considered to be rude, so many conversations take place in English (which is neutral) unless it is determined that the two speakers are native speakers of the same language.

{"commentId":1568189,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 6 votes
#10.11 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:54 AM EDT
{"commentId":1568473,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

Whoa...I would say you summed that one up perfectly between the various countries on use of languages. I learned early on, just knowing a little of the language sure goes a long way, same with knowing a little about the country or culture, you get treated much differently.

{"commentId":1568473,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 7 votes
#10.12 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:43 AM EDT
{"commentId":1568895,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

One of the funniest things that happened to me was in a Japanese grocery in Amsterdam. I was buying some bits and pieces to take home, and had to wait a bit as the (Japanese) woman at the checkout had been surprised by a visit from a Japanese friend and naturally they were chatting away in Japanese for a bit. I just took my time with my shopping. When it came to buying my stuff, we proceeded in Dutch. As I was sorting out the money, I noticed a 100 yen coin in my purse and showed it to her, with a smile. She then said something that was well beyond my Dutch, but never mind.

"ああ、すみません。オランド語をできません。" I said.

At which point she demonstrated how Dutch she had become by speaking to me in English.

{"commentId":1568895,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#10.13 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:44 AM EDT
{"commentId":1569157,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

Reminds me of a 3 day business trip spanning 5 countries a few years ago. Starting from London and ending in Paris via Oslo, Stockholm and Brussels with just English and French as my lingo.

My brain had been exposed to all those different languages en route, with really only having to switch to one another language for communication needs en route whilst in Brussels. I was in the ticket booth Q at CDG for the train into town. By the time I got to the front, I was totally disoriented about where I was and which lingo my brain needed to switch to. Just stood there like a lemon. Even when the guy pressed impatiently with a questioning "Oui, monsieur?".

I think I eventuallu blurted out something in bit-French, bit-English and a lorra Martian. The look on his face said it all. Something like bleeding aliens:-)

{"commentId":1569157,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
  • 7 votes
#10.14 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
{"commentId":1569602,"authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}

Since we're telling these stories...

When I was 18, a friend and I did the Europe-tour thing. Not long in, my friend caught chicken pox (and I later caught it from him, the fun!). Anyway, there I was in Rome, he was sick in bed, and I had an Italian phrase book which was no doubt useful in all sorts of circumstances, but not for people looking for help with chicken pox. After saying 'farmacia' (courtesy of the phrasebook) to a policeman, and following his finger, I found a pharmacy and realised that I had no idea how to tell them the issue.

So I scratched.

I pointed to imaginary spots all over my body.

I did the chicken dance.

I reckon those two pharmacists still talk about me a dinner parties.

{"commentId":1569602,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}
  • 8 votes
#10.15 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1564037,"authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}

Haha, this is fortuitous, just last night I found this old Not the Nine o'Clock News clip. Looks like things are much the same :)

{"commentId":1564037,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}
  • 7 votes
Reply#11 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:19 AM EDT
{"commentId":1564626,"authorDomain":"cartooncat"}

Haha - thanks for that - I haven't seen it for ages!

{"commentId":1564626,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"cartooncat"}
  • 5 votes
#11.1 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
{"commentId":1566310,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Thanks dungbeetlemania - that is absolutely the perfect clip to go with this article.

{"commentId":1566310,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 3 votes
#11.2 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566450,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}

Great find and very apropos. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

NTNON did a fair few skits on racism I recall one about an overzealous police office trying to press charges on a black gentleman for being in possession of "Curly black hair and an offensive wife".

{"commentId":1566450,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
  • 5 votes
#11.3 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:11 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566828,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
NTNON

One of the best from that era. I saw Rowan do a one man show at the height of NTNON. Pure genius.

{"commentId":1566828,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
  • 5 votes
#11.4 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566923,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Sprydle: I remember "urinating in a public lavatory" and "wearing loud shirts in a built-up area" among the charges.

{"commentId":1566923,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#11.5 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:16 PM EDT
{"commentId":1568204,"authorDomain":"cartooncat"}

Don't forget "Loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing."

{"commentId":1568204,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"cartooncat"}
  • 7 votes
#11.6 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:07 AM EDT
{"commentId":1569627,"authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}

I haven't seen that one, and have been looking for it on youtube with no success. A great pity, it sounds really good :)

{"commentId":1569627,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"dungbeetlemania"}
  • 2 votes
#11.7 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":1564988,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

Y'know what? I feel really ashamed to be a 2nd generation immigrant into the country. Just before the influx of Asians (mainly Indians) in Leicester in the late 60s/early 70s, the area was facing decline. Uncompetitive and obsolete manufacturing and industry practices, especially the UK Auto sector, labour laws and market were some elements of a local recession. Within 2 decades, the area has seen much regeneration and growth. The immigrant population are an important part of that success story. Shocking, ain't it? If they had just not bothered to go there, maybe Leicester and much of the Midlands would have been better left to the natural laws of supply and demand. Ah well, never mind. Guess the tax revenue was welcome.

ps - plenty of source material on the web. So forgive me if I don't cite some sources. BBC has some links. I gave some to Sandy anyway.

Feorag - I like your style:-)

{"commentId":1564988,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
  • 7 votes
Reply#12 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:27 AM EDT
{"commentId":1566326,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Leicester is particularly notable for its Gujarati community, who were taken in after Idi Amin decided he didn't want hard-working people in Uganda. Their success is well documented though, for me, obviously, the important bit is that it means Leicester has lots of great vegetarian restaurants. I enjoyed my visit considerably.

{"commentId":1566326,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:43 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566873,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

Its eons since I've been to Leicester. Plenty of guju veggie restos in London now. But the last visit about 10 years ago came as a shock. At the height of influx following the break up of Yugoslavia, Belgrave Road was rather full of mothers begging with their children in tow. Very aggressive too, and early on a Sunday morn. One even managed to sneak in at the restaurant we were in. Made it very awkward for the staff as she kept on staring at diners, wouldn't leave and staff felt compelled to feed her a meal that she had no intention (nor means) to pay for.

Let me know if you're in London, Feorag.

{"commentId":1566873,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
  • 4 votes
#12.2 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:02 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566940,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

I'll be in London over Easter, but mostly stuck in a hotel by Heathrow.

{"commentId":1566940,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#12.3 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566949,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
hotel by Heathrow.

For Easter ? Thats no fun !

{"commentId":1566949,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 6 votes
#12.4 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:22 PM EDT
{"commentId":1566979,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

Science fiction convention with a real ale bar, and a chance for me to see the A380 for the first time. It will be fun.

{"commentId":1566979,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#12.5 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:32 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567011,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

Oh.......well that kinda sorta changes the whole picture around, whenever I hear Heathrow + Hotel, my mind goes back into recall mood of the many times that PanAm or Lufthansa or United or whatever has stranded me there for a day or so....

Your visit sounds awesome...

{"commentId":1567011,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 5 votes
#12.6 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:42 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567039,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

I try to avoid Heathrow Airport as much as possible. When going transatlantic, it is much more civilised to change at Dublin, and going east, any of the European hubs are an improvement.

{"commentId":1567039,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 5 votes
#12.7 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:50 PM EDT
{"commentId":1567204,"authorDomain":"TeddRi"}

I have never been to Heathrow when they are not doing some form of construction on the place and the signs are mixed up and left over from last time they did construction, drives me crazy, I have missed many a flight because of that.

{"commentId":1567204,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"TeddRi"}
  • 5 votes
#12.8 - Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
{"commentId":1568197,"authorDomain":"feorag"}

The last time I changed planes at Heathrow, I had to switch from Terminal 1 to Terminal 4 (and the other way on the way back). No thank you. I haven't yet missed a connection there, but have done so twice at Schiphol (both due to my flight being late) - AMS really needs a people mover of some sort.

{"commentId":1568197,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"feorag"}
  • 4 votes
#12.9 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:03 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":7518112,"authorDomain":"redwolf"}

Awesome article and well worth a revisit with the xenophobia morons from the BNP gaining headway amongst the stupid.

{"commentId":7518112,"threadId":"232477","contentId":"1356131","authorDomain":"redwolf"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#13 - Mon Jun 8, 2009 7:45 AM EDT
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